KATE KEMP

TRANSCRIPT

00:01:50 WHERE IT ALL BEGINS

KATE KEMP: Hello. Today I am joined by Mr. Graham Hall and you are formerly the strategist of Coca-Cola, PlayStation, Nike.

You worked on one of my favorite campaigns of all time, the anti-tobacco Truth campaign with Crispin Porter & Bogusky. But why we're talking today is because you are also the author of a very favorite book of mine called The Dragon and the Hummingbird with beautiful art by … is it Taz?

GRAHAM HALL: Paul Taylor.

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Lots of lovely pictures. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: Gorgeous, gorgeous art. Yes. So, this book is available at HummingbirdEffect.org and it's FREE if you would like for it to be or you can get your

GRAHAM HALL: Free?!

KATE KEMP: Free?! WHAT?! Get out!

GRAHAM HALL: Get out of here!

KATE KEMP: [laughs] But it's … no catch!. No catch. The only catch is that you should read it and if you like it … umm … even if you don't like it, you should also buy a paperback copy before it gets eaten up by the internet demons who erase everything, right?! So yeah, I met you because of a post on LinkedIn before they were all written by robots. So Tom Christmann, the CMO of TiNY had posted about you and I went to your site and I downloaded the book and loved it and thought it was fantastic and we connected because I actually did donate … you can donate to Graham if you like the book and if you support the cause and that's how I met you because I left you a little note and you reached out to me on LinkedIn and here we are today after many WhatsApp exchanges and many video calls about life and climate change which is what this book is all about. So, welcome welcome to the conversation.

KATE KEMP: My very first podcast. Episode one.

GRAHAM HALL: Is this the OctoPodcast? Or …

KATE KEMP: The OctoPodcast … I haven't decided yet. We're still in R&D for the name of this.

GRAHAM HALL: Still in development, Yeah. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: We'll do some A/B testing. We'll figure it out. But …

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:10 THE STORY OF THE HUMMINGBIRD

KATE KEMP: So tell me, for those who aren't familiar with the hummingbird tale … tell me about that. What is the story of the hummingbird?

GRAHAM HALL: Well, the hummingbird is a little story told within the larger book and it's part of a story that's told by one of the characters in which she explains that there's a fire and this is an old, I think it's an African folk tale. So I've just transcribed this element of it because it … I'd actually written the book to be honest. And then a friend of mine had read the book and said, "Have you ever heard of the story about the hummingbird?" And I said, "No." And he told me and I thought, "Oh my god, I've got to put that in the book!" So that's actually a good example of how this book has evolved over time.

GRAHAM HALL: But anyway, so that little story ... There is a forest fire and all of the animals, all the tigers and lions are running away from the fire and the snakes and they're trying to get away from the flames. And meanwhile, they spot a little tiny hummingbird going in the opposite direction. And as they're running, they can see this hummingbird going to and from. It's going to the river and picking up some water in its tiny little beak and flying towards the flames and then squirting that two drops of water on the flames and it's doing this all day, this little hummingbird. and the tiger says, "Why are you doing this little hummingbird?" And the hummingbird says … the tiger is saying, "It's amazing that you're doing it, but you're not going to make any effect at all. Why don't you just give up?"

And the little hummingbird said, “Well, I'm doing what I can." And that is an encapsulation of what the book is really about. It's about all of us getting together in our own separate ways and creating a kind of … it's like a network of activity. Some of which is joined up some of it which is just an individual working at the project for themselves. And that's essentially what the book is about.

It spends a lot of time explaining how the system that we're currently living within … mostly unconsciously is having a severe effect on the climate. And I'm not necessarily having a go at the system itself, but I'm having a go at a system that is having that effect. So we have to all of us I think step back a little bit and ask some serious questions about what is our part in this process that's unfolding right in front of us and hopefully the book … I don't want to sort of go on too much here, Kate, but I do tend to ramble.

In my mind it came to me that we all of us want this to stop. Very few of us (the psychopaths amongst us may not be included) but the vast majority of us would think … would prefer things to not be the way they currently are. And we may be trying to do something about it. Or we may feel overwhelmed because there's so much stuff that seems to be needed to be done and we have so little power in the process that we don't bother. We're like that tiger that is running away.

00:07:46 WE’RE WORKING ON A 1,000-PIECE JIGSAW SET

So it came to me that it's almost as though we have this thousand-piece jigsaw set and we're all working on these little pieces and we're trying to put these little pieces together.

Some people are over there putting together the green stuff that maybe trees and then there's some people over there putting the blue stuff together that might be the sky. But none of us know because somebody's lost the box lid. And we have no idea what the finished picture looks like. And what I'm hoping this book … what I think this book … why I wrote this book and what I tried to do was just to describe the overall picture so that we can see how the various pieces fit together within the whole of the picture, if you can grab that analogy. Because when you know, when you can see the direction you're traveling and it's not confusing, you can become so much more effective and so much more engaged and so much more … feeling as though there is a purpose to what we would like to do ourselves. I think that this feeling is kind of latent within us. We want to do something. We're just not quite sure what to do. And we're given a lot of divisive counterarguments to why we should be doing it. So, it's a recipe for confusion, which is exactly what helps the system continue. So, this is my little way of writing, of doing my bit to be my hummingbird. And I'm hoping that people … if they read the book and I kind of think this is true because I get quite a lot of feedback from people saying it's made them more conscious and…more kind of considerate about what they're doing and it kind of makes these micro changes in behavior because you see how it all works together more coherently. There you go. That's what it's about.

KATE KEMP: Beautiful. Beautifully said.

GRAHAM HALL: Was it? Can I say … so one other thing, Kate, and I know you're the host and I should let you say something, but I think me and you talking is actually a microcosm of what we're talking about. The fact that you're in Seattle, I'm living in the UK now, and we didn't know each other from Adam. And it was only some wonderful miracle the algorithm fed you my book and you looked at a crappy website that I'd put together and…

KATE KEMP: [Laughs]

GRAHAM HALL: And you could maybe perceive through all of the crappiness of it that there was somebody earnest and with a genuine desire to trying to do something. And you responded to that because it kind of resonated with how you felt. So me and we I think we're good friends

KATE KEMP: Yes! Absolutely!

GRAHAM HALL: Even though we've never met and we live so much further away and the time gaps are horrible you might say. It's 7 a.m. at your place and it's 3:00 p.m. where I am.

00:10:59 WE ARE ALL ONE!

But we are in a way we're kind of one because it's great because I know what your values are and that's such a beautiful thing to kind of know that our Venn diagram really overlaps on all the important bits and together and you're putting together a podcast now. You're going to be spreading the word about all sorts of great things and I'm not necessarily the reason for that, <Actually, Graham actually is the MAIN reason I finally stopped making excuses to put something out there, but he’s a super humble human.> you would have been doing it anyway, but I've contributed a little bit to you doing that and you're contributing to me to help me do what I'm trying to do. So, THAT’S THE POWER OF THE HUMMINGBIRD! That's the hummingbird EFFECT in ACTION!

KATE KEMP: Hey, look at this. I wore this for you today! [Kate stands up to show her red T-shirt with a print of a hummingbird flying to the right of a plant by a pool of water that’s reflecting the sun]

GRAHAM HALL: HEY!! Wonderful.

KATE KEMP: [Laughs]

KATE KEMP: We're all little hummingbirds.

GRAHAM HALL: Thank you so much.

00:11:50 PEOPLE ARE PUZZLE PIECES

KATE KEMP: And I love your jigsaw analogy because that's one of my things that I say often is that I consider people to be puzzle pieces and that our purpose is to connect to the other pieces that fit. But not only that, I think people get wrapped up in, connecting to people … like … “It's me me ME! I need to connect with this piece … or even romantically like “This is the one!” like “We're meant to be soul mates!” And it's like … you can … that can happen! I'm not saying it can't, but I think more importantly, it's about seeing those pieces like being able maybe I can see part of the lid that no one else can see and I can say [GASP!] “YOU need to connect with THIS person!” or “Oh my gosh!” and that's what happened with Tom posting about you and that's how I found you was like he put that puzzle piece out there saying “Hey! Anyone looking for this part of the puzzle? I've got it over here!” And that's what drew me into it, you know?

GRAHAM HALL: That's beautiful. Yeah, it's really great. I hadn't thought about that.

KATE KEMP: Yeah. I think that … I'll add another layer to that and say that I think that there's not just one puzzle that we're putting together. So, even if you think you see the lid and you're like, I know exactly what this is, you might be in a completely different puzzle, not have anything to do with that, and it's your job to help that puzzle get put together so someone else can help you find your pieces…

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yes.

KATE KEMP: And that's how we all come together because I don't think any one person can … I will take that back. I was going to say not one person can change the world. I don't believe that. I think one person can. But the way that it's changing is by putting that energy out there to inspire others to continue doing that.

KATE KEMP: Because even if I were to find all of my edges and connect and be like, I'm done. It's like … great. We're four pieces in a four million piece puzzle. So, good job me. But also you can't stop there!

GRAHAM HALL: Brilliant. I love it. That's great! There's also a little piece about this. the fact that we were talking and I've been doing quite a lot of these interviews … They're not interviews they're conversations I'm calling it's a bit of a salon so I've put out invitations for anybody on LinkedIn if they wanted to talk to me to get in touch and we can have a chat over the internet and it's so great because we don't know what we're going to talk about we're not selling anything to one another and what it made me realize was how transactional the system makes us in a way. It's all about … you do things “in order to” something there's very little … I do something without necessarily knowing what the outcome's going to be and that leaves the door open for a whole new set of solutions and options and in insights to come in that I hadn't necessarily planned for. It's a beautiful thing and it's all based on mutual respect as well…which is when you take away that profit motive, there's much more room for us to relate in a more authentic way, I suppose.

KATE KEMP: Yes! Absolutely. I think one of the things that I miss the most from pre-covid-have-to-go-to-the-office-every-day times … the “before times” is those water cooler moments. It’s those … you go in, you're pissed off because of whatever is going on in your pitch or your day or whatever and you feel like fine I'm just going to get a coffee I just need a minute. You go in there and there's somebody else who you've never seen before from the agency or in whatever field you work in standing there doing the same thing. You have your little pleasantries, your little, surface level weather talk or whatever. But then if you allow it, it can turn into an inspirational moment with someone who is outside of your ecosystem that you've created, right? And I think one of the issues and one of the reasons that people are feeling so stagnant lately is because they're sitting in their own pool. They're allowing the algorithms to feed them. And IT’S CALLED A FEED! The “Instagram FEED.”

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: It's feeding you this repetitive dialogue, this one viewpoint where we might look at the same post and we'll be fed different comments because that's what the algorithm does. It wants to keep you from challenging your own viewpoint and…

00:15:00

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah.

KATE KEMP: just saying, well of course, of course this is what I believe because everybody around me believes this, but you're not looking at anybody else." and so those moments … there was a post that just got shared around on Substack the other day. It was a quote about Vonnegut saying he was going to go and buy an envelope and his wife was like, "Don't you're going to buy a single envelope? what is wrong with you?" and…

GRAHAM HALL: Yes.

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yes.

KATE KEMP: order them online. You can get a hundred for half of the price or whatever. And he's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no." the thing is, and of course, he's written this way more beautifully than I'm going to paraphrase. no, it's about the act of going to get the envelope. I compliment the woman on her dog on the way. I see the guy getting a coffee. I, watch someone trip and help them. It's those extra interactions that inspire you to create. And if everything is just fed to you, then you're just going to get fat. Metaphorically.

GRAHAM HALL: And yes, and the algorithms do that.

GRAHAM HALL: But I think that the thing … especially in this day and age there's less and less what's the word discretionary money around for you to spend on things. Everything's more expensive. We have less spare cash to buy things, for example. But that also means that we have less spare time not to be doing something that's making more money because I think we're becoming more and more compressed by the economy which it has less and less breathing space for just living. it's all about making money to live.

So, I said, I think we're being compressed more and more by this system, which includes all the flipping billionaires.

And it gives us less and less free time at just think just to have free time, for example, to have these conversations. Hey ho, I don't want to get too depressing, but that's kind of like the

KATE KEMP: Well, it's a depressing topic, but that's the beauty of your book is that even though, ultimately, it's a look at climate change, it's a look at the system that we're in and what we can do about it.

KATE KEMP: It's not just a doom and gloom, “Oh my gosh, everything's falling apart!” (Which is one of the reasons I love your book.) There are actual tips and tricks in there in the dialogue to help you make an impact to make a difference. From thinking about what you're eating, and not being meat focused …

GRAHAM HALL: Oh yeah. Can I say something else about that? I think there's … Sorry if you can hear that helicopter. they're closing in.

KATE KEMP: I can’t. They're after you! They don’t want us talking about this!

GRAHAM HALL: They're closing in!

00:20:09 REFUSING TO BE PART OF THE CORPORATE MACHINE

Within this book I think there's about three or four thoughts, concepts, ideas which I believe I came up with without it being some sort of false memory syndrome or something. but the rest of it is all readily available information that most people know. There's very little of this I think that would come as a surprise to somebody that's got even a cursory interest in the subject.

KATE KEMP: Mhm.

GRAHAM HALL: But I think what the book does is lay it out so that it makes a kind of linear sense and it starts at one end and we go through learning about some stuff and then we learn how to fix it and then we learn about how to be inspired etc. None of which is and now we've got a car alarm going off. none of which is novel, but what is possibly novel is that I've laid it out in a way that's easy to understand and it's not a drag and you're bowled along by it and it's a kind of an event in a way almost. It's almost experiential. I sound terrible telling you how great my book is.

KATE KEMP: That's the whole point I'm talking to you is tell great your book is it's okay that …but that's the sign of your humility in you have written something great and like you told me the other day you're getting 50 requests on LinkedIn a day people agree that this is good content so don't be too humble. You want people to buy the book. So don't forget that part.

GRAHAM HALL: Download it! You don't have to buy it.

KATE KEMP: Yes. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: HummingbirdEffect.org. Yes.

GRAHAM HALL: Because it's actually also important, Kate, to mention that it is absolutely anti-Amazon. This is not about feeding the corporations. In a way, I want the book to be a microcosm of what the book's talking about.

It's an evidence of what we're trying to achieve, which is that individuals can read this thing and spread the word and maybe point to other books like it. Or will take your thinking further forwards and it's all done outside of that system of monetization that Bezos or Musk or whomever … Ellison … might want to get a piece of the action from us.

It's not their action! They're not having the piece of this action. Go and find their own action! Go find something more interesting to do with their lives than just sort of gathering huge amounts of money and putting them in a bank account somewhere offshore. Yeah. Sorry.

KATE KEMP: Yes. Yes. So, you will NOT find this book on Amazon. Absolutely not. You're preaching your own message there.

GRAHAM HALL: And until…sorry.

KATE KEMP: No, no!

GRAHAM HALL: Until a distributor comes out which isn't exploitative and extractive. Obviously I'd love that to happen if there was an alternative because of … it's the way it's rigged at the minute … there IS no alternatives as far as I'm aware. So we have to try and do it ourselves and…

KATE KEMP: Right.

GRAHAM HALL: and it would be a wonderful kick in the … poke in the eye if this or books like it or content like it I mean it is beginning to happen I have to say. So this is maybe one of a lot of different alternatives that we will start exploring. The whole concept of opensource software and open source and mutual aid and cooperation. It's discussed in the book. I actually do believe, Kate, that we are beginning to say, “No, this doesn't work for me. I want a different system that serves me better.” Something I call “enlightened self-interest.” (Well, I don't call it that. It's a thing.) This realization that self-interest is all about looking after number one. But enlightened self-interest is realizing that the best way to look after number one is to look after everybody else because we are all part of a kind of mutually reliant system. It's not rocket science.

00:24:43 IT’S OKAY IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON

KATE KEMP: [laughs] Yeah, it's true. It's true. But I think another thing that I really love about your book is that while you do on the one hand want to be like, "My gosh, you guys, it's so simple! WHY CAN’T YOU SEE THIS?!" you're not doing that in the way that it's written. and it makes it safe to where I will admittedly say I'm not educated when it comes to political things. I’m not. I rely on very involved friends and I'll check in with them and be like,

"Yo, is there anything I should be paying attention to?"

And they're like, "You don't know about XYZ?"

I'm like, "No. Should I?"

“YES! OH MY GOSH!”

“Okay! Okay! I'll go pay attention!”

And so a lot of times when people are talking about political climate, I'm like, I don't understand what's really happening.

But your book will cover off on a lot of things that I was curious about, but maybe felt stupid to ask, right? Which is I know I should know this. I don't even want to admit I don't know this. I'm just gonna nod along and then look it up later or whatever. But there were a lot of things in your book that were educational and the way that they're presented is … you know, the angle is that someone who doesn't understand what's going on is being educated by someone who does and it's not in a demeaning slap-you-across-the-face like: “Oh you IDIOT! What's wrong with you?! Don't you know that, by not paying attention, you're destroying the world!” And giving that guilt to where anyone who doesn't understand feels even worse and then it's like, “Well, I'm certainly never going to ask a question again because I don't want people to know I don't know!” But I think that the trick is that most people don't know. You know you know you <OMG 3 you knows in a row? Come on, Kate> You understand the patterns and you can see what's going on, but unless you're actively discussing it, unless you're having that discourse in which maybe I believe something is a certain way until I talk to someone who doesn't and I have to defend oooor change ?! Oh my gosh, holy crap … CHANGE that position? What do you mean?! Either way, like we're not evolving. [00:25:00] we're not coming up with those solutions of change. And so I loved that I could read that book and be like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't understand that either, but I felt too stupid to ask.” But I know that there are people out there who are willing to sit with me and talk me through it.” And that's another reason I wanted to start doing this podcast is to talk to people about topics that I'm afraid to talk about because I feel stupid. Because I don't know. Because I can't be like “Well according to whatever happened in whatever year with whoever in charge like this!” I don't have those references!

GRAHAM HALL: And can I say that you're clearly a super smart person. Really smart person. And yeah, it's weird. We aren't taught this in school actually.

KATE KEMP: Right. And in corporations you're like … you can get fired for talking about it. You don't talk about politics.

GRAHAM HALL: No. Yeah. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: You don't talk about religion. And you certainly don't talk about how much you're making. Well, if we look at this one that I know a lot about: how much you're making. I'm very good negotiator. I've always negotiated solid salaries. I know how to do that.

And the reason I KNOW how to do that is because I'm not afraid to ask questions about it. And what I learned when I ask questions about it? Holy moly, is it a corrupt messed up thing as a woman creative leader to be friends with people like you and say like “Ahh … I asked for like… 100k is that like …? I feel like ‘Oh my gosh like is that like…?” And then I'll talk to somebody like you you'll be like “Oh my gosh! You should be asking for DOUBLE that! What are you TALKING about?!!” Like “What are YOU talking about?! What are YOU making?!” and then you hear that number? You’ll fall out your chair.

But I never would have heard those numbers if I wasn't confident enough to ask the question and…

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: and by asking those question then having this conversation then “I'm only making X. And then the other person's like “Are you serious?!” So the only way that you discover things that are messed up is by asking the questions about them and conversing with people who have different experiences than you.

GRAHAM HALL: But that takes courage as well… because by asking that question … they don't want you to ask those questions.

KATE KEMP: Yes! That's why you get fired for asking it and that's why you have to go underground and you have a cocktail with somebody and you're like “Okay okay, this is totally off the record. Please tell anybody I said this BUT…”

GRAHAM HALL: Yes. Yes.

KATE KEMP: And then you learn the truth and you're like [GASP] “No wonder they don't want us to talk about this! Holy moly!”

00:29:40 THE CLIMATE CHANGE BELL CURVE

GRAHAM HALL: You mentioned that. So, I'm really touched that you said what you said about you didn't know this stuff because you're a smart person and the fact that I wrote it, right at the beginning there's this kind of bell curve thing which is saying that you got all these kind of what's it called? Greta Thunbergs at one end who are very radicalized … not radicalized in a bad way. They are very engaged. And then at the other thin end of this bell curve there's all the kind of the billionaires who are trying to not change the status quo.

So you got people at the other end trying to retain the status Then you’ve got this huge dome in the middle, people like me and you where we don't know which one's the right way to go.

KATE KEMP: Right. Mhm.

GRAHAM HALL: And we're not given the information and all it will need in my view is a little shove for that bell curve to be pushed towards the more radical end, the more change end for the whole thing to change. But when we're just sat in the middle not sure which way to go, it just perpetuates the status quo and we're running out of time quite frankly. So we're going to have to try and shift that bell curve. [0:29:14] There was something else I wanted to mention and it's gone. You'll have to cut this bit out of this. it's just no.

<I did NOT edit this part out. Sorry, Graham. LOL. It helped support my next point.>

KATE KEMP: Absolutely. We'll do some editing. I'm also disappointed. For some reason, we're getting pixelated. It makes me sad. But I'll use this moment to say that with this podcast one of the reasons I didn't do it for so long is because I felt like it had to be perfect. I felt like I need the right equipment. I need the highest internet speed. Whatever. I have to have the intro song and I've got to have the animatic and then will I have to do site and…well I have to do this and I have to do that. It's like … “No I don’t! I need to have a conversation.” So, it's pixelated, but like … So what? The message is what's important, not how the message looks. <Also, just a note that when you have Google Meet record your meetings, it records it in a high quality, even if your own visuals look like crap. My live visuals looked way worse than the final video file provided.>

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you should say that somewhere, you know …

KATE KEMP: Yeah!

GRAHAM HALL: own up to it because, we're not all trying to be perfect. Being perfect is part of the problems, by the way. That's part of another one of the fucking … another one of the rules that we are constrained by.

KATE KEMP: Yeah. Yeah. <Gross. I now wipe my nose with a tissue on camera. Definitely not polished, but I’m leaving it in anyway b/c who cares?!>

00:32:00 OPEN YOUR MIND

GRAHAM HALL: What was I was going to say? Oh! That was maybe one thing I wanted to say was I'm not trying to give you any answers either. I'm just trying to open the mind to explore answers for oneself.

I don't think the book is trying to be prescriptive about what you should do. You should just know the facts rather than I'm not telling you what to think.

KATE KEMP: Right. You're telling … that's the difference. You’re not telling us WHAT to think. You're telling us TO think. Very, very different direction.

GRAHAM HALL: Right. I think … because I don't know the answers either. I do know that we just all need to be more aware. I do have a faith in humans. I do believe that they are inherently good and that they inherently want to help one another.

Although the system has kind of tried to make us believe that's not the case. I genuinely believe it is the case.

KATE KEMP: Yes. Yeah.

GRAHAM HALL: And really to just what's I guess … rebalance that argument, I think. Just put up a coherent argument in defense of people and why we should look after one another and the beautiful planet we live on. It's ridiculous that the situation we're in when we have this embarrassment of riches are all around us and … we're just trapping it out. It's ridiculous.

00:33:24 “THE CYCLE OF WANT” TRAP

KATE KEMP: It's like we're living in this world in which we can literally have anything we want. ANYTHING WE WANT. And yet, we've trapped ourselves in this cycle of want, right? Where it's just like … it's never enough. We consistently want more. I think it's what's interesting to me is, when you think about the little changes you can make, one of the changes that I made was I stopped ordering delivery stuff, groceries, regular subscription things. I have one toilet paper subscription to Plant Paper. I guess it's the only place I can get it. <I also have a subscription to Huel and one for Ritual (which you don’t need to be pregnant to benefit from).>

GRAHAM HALL: Okay. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: But I stopped doing that because I realized that addiction to having boxes on my doorstep every day, became a thing. And then I wanted more. It's like, I'm opening a present. I get a present for me every day! And it's like, I need this thing. I also need this. And I'd look around the house and be like, “I should totally get a new … whatever … oven mit” or “I should get a new …” whatever ... Just things you don't need. Things you do not need them, but you've convinced yourself and you're addicted to … boxes of smiles coming on your doorstep every day and it just like perpetuates that want cycle. And when I stopped doing that, I realized there were a couple things that I missed where it's like “Aw man…” like for a while I didn't have a rug under this chair. So I would be on conference calls and it would be like one of these where I just keep rolling back because I have an angle in my apartment. So that things like that were annoying, but at the same time it just showed me I didn't NEED any of those things, right? But you don't know that just until you break out of that cycle…until you crush out that last cigarette and realize whatever. You know what I mean? it's been a interesting thing.

GRAHAM HALL: It's very like up an addiction … I think.

KATE KEMP: Yeah, it is. And it hurts and it sucks. And do I like taking the bus to the grocery store and only being able to carry bags that I can carry? Not particularly. But what I do love is the experiences I have on the way, the people I talk to at the bus stop.

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. Yeah.

KATE KEMP: Whatever … who's rapping on the bus and they're really good. I wouldn't have heard that or whatever it is. you don't — all of those experiences you just close yourself off to when you just have it come straight to you and you stay in your little prison box, you're imprisoning yourself, but you don't have to do that.

00:35:58 most people are inherently nice

GRAHAM HALL: Yeah. We also spend an awful lot of time projecting what other people think of us.

KATE KEMP: Mhm.

GRAHAM HALL: And again that’s … I always used to be in advertising that's basically what I was doing. I was make making people imagine what other people thought about them if they didn't have my product which is fucking awful. Disgusting when you think about that because actually most people think other people are nice and…

KATE KEMP: Yep.

GRAHAM HALL: and the people who the nicest are the ones who don't give a fuck about that. The ones who are free and they're not showing up and they don't have the latest thing because they're happy in themselves. That's the most attractive feature of anybody I think. It radiates out of somebody who's just, you know, comfortable with themselves and confident and then don’t need props to justify who they are.

KATE KEMP: Yeah.

GRAHAM HALL: So yeah, kind of it gets kind of Buddhist and quite kind of non-materialistic and all of that stuff when you really get into it.

KATE KEMP: Yeah.

GRAHAM HALL: Those guys knew a thing or two about life and what really makes you happy.

0:37:17 Graham's book-writing process